[AeroIceman]

Miracles are the very definition of something unscientific

Incorrect

or impossible to logically explain by science.

Correct.

In the following you perfect illustrate my four points above:
a)a lack of pertinent credentials in the sciences
b)little to no understanding of religion/s
c)"bad" information of religion/s
d)confusion. science and true religion harmonize, not the opposite.

If everything in the Bible is true, so are these:

The world is only six thousand years old

aside from your point being laughable, you prove you fall into points b) and c)

, was created in six days, dinosaurs never existed, man was created out of clay, the first woman was made out of a man, the sun goes around the earth, demons, invisible spirits, ghosts, holy ghosts, demons, angels, snakes, bushes, and donkeys, can talk, virgin birth is possible, invisible souls can either be saved or unsaved, depending on what a person decides to believe in their heart, the heart is the center of all thought and emotion, people can be raised from the dead, people can walk on water, water can be turned into wine, 5000 people can easily be fed with two loaves and two fishes, diseases can be caused by demons, a person can live in the belly of a whale for three days and nights, whales' stomach acid has no effect on humans, a person can be taken into the sky in a chariot of flame, etc.

again, like almost everyone that holds your position, you have almost no understanding of religion/s (need proof, read and think over your above statement after you have studied religions from a non-biased point of view), rather you are so focused on your lack of belief and reason that you misinterpret/misunderstand/ and poorly paraphrase "beliefs". You may impress the ignorant and the fools, but to those that have an education and understanding in both science and world religions, you and your methods are rather childish.
I know you can argue your points much better than you just did; but you may be handicapped by your lack of understanding.
To summarize, your statements categorize into points b) and c).

The smartest people in the world to have ever lived, from Einstein down, at the end of their lives, believed in a Creator.

To that I can offer this. As time goes on, the general education level of the population increases and people become smarter and more logical. Whereas 200 years ago almost the entire population of the world believed in a Creator, the number of atheists is on a steady rise right now. Additionally, the percentages of atheists among the more educated classes is greater than among the less educated classes.

Einstein. Einstein. Einstein. I specifically mentioned Einstein (and left out super- intellectuals like Guass, et all) because this your answer was predictable. Einstein died in the middle of last century! Thats right, not 200 years ago, like you state, more like ~50years ago.
Your last statement is also not true (It may be true in Russia and England, but these are State run churches, hence the issue -- again, to better understand this, youll have to do some reading/research).

[AeroIceman]

i dont thing its fair to say that, ignoreing facts do not make them go away.

i certianly would'nt say that views raised in this discussion are 100% accurate, but apart from the "big questions" (eg life, before big bang etc) science can show that many religious views are just representations of observations that people of the time could not explain an so said "God made it that way"

To briefly address your points, I ask you the following:
Have you studied, in-depth the "big bang" theory, evolution, etc??
Or do you mindlessly regurgitate what you've heard?

If you, and once you, take a closer, academic and scientific look at these concepts you will see that believing in them takes as much faith and as many leaps as believing in religion.

you say, " ignoreing facts do not make them go away."
I say, how about properly learning them!
(Novel concept, i know )

So again i state, you cannot logically use science against religion. Try something else.
To answer XVI, i think, I do long division by trade.

[tapdov]

Miracles are the very definition of something unscientific or impossible to logically explain by science.

If everything in the Bible is true, so are these:
The world is only six thousand years old, was created in six days, dinosaurs never existed, man was created out of clay, the first woman was made out of a man, the sun goes around the earth, demons, invisible spirits, ghosts, holy ghosts, demons, angels, snakes, bushes, and donkeys, can talk, virgin birth is possible, invisible souls can either be saved or unsaved, depending on what a person decides to believe in their heart, the heart is the center of all thought and emotion, people can be raised from the dead, people can walk on water, water can be turned into wine, 5000 people can easily be fed with two loaves and two fishes, diseases can be caused by demons, a person can live in the belly of a whale for three days and nights, whales' stomach acid has no effect on humans, a person can be taken into the sky in a chariot of flame, etc.

Which religion believes all of that?

[sherlockx]

AeroIceman
Please can I ask you what you mean by:-

pertinent credentials in the sciences

Perhaps that phrase could be split into two parts for your explanation?
Thus, what is a pertinent credential? You mention a degree! Do you really consider a B.Sc to be a credential? I gave up collecting boxtops a long time ago.
"Sciences" Which ones were you contemplating?
I do however agree with your partial comment

get off wikipedia

and

do some research

Could you also explain

true religion

from

d)confusion. science and true religion harmonize, not the opposite.

Do you have a list or is there only one, if so which one?
I hope you will answer this post for i try to strive towards enlightenment.

[lifehacker]

AI: its interesting how you say that my argument are false yet offer nothing to support this opinion.

The world is only six thousand years old

aside from your point being laughable, you prove you fall into points b) and c)

The bible goes through a genealogy from Adam to Jesus, and if the statistics are added up you will get around 4000 years. To that we add the apr. 2000 years since Jesus and we get 6000. The bible is very clear about this.

again, like almost everyone that holds your position, you have almost no understanding of religion/s (need proof, read and think over your above statement after you have studied religions from a non-biased point of view), rather you are so focused on your lack of belief and reason that you misinterpret/misunderstand/ and poorly paraphrase "beliefs". You may impress the ignorant and the fools, but to those that have an education and understanding in both science and world religions, you and your methods are rather childish.

While you are attacking the stance, you offer absolutely nothing to support your point of view or disprove the above statements. Instead you are relying on blank statements about my personality and the nature of my arguments.

To that I can offer this. As time goes on, the general education level of the population increases and people become smarter and more logical. Whereas 200 years ago almost the entire population of the world believed in a Creator, the number of atheists is on a steady rise right now. Additionally, the percentages of atheists among the more educated classes is greater than among the less educated classes.

Einstein. Einstein. Einstein. I specifically mentioned Einstein (and left out super- intellectuals like Guass, et all) because this your answer was predictable. Einstein died in the middle of last century! Thats right, not 200 years ago, like you state, more like ~50years ago.
Your last statement is also not true (It may be true in Russia and England, but these are State run churches, hence the issue -- again, to better understand this, youll have to do some reading/research).

What I said about 200 years ago was not fully true since there were groups like the Jacobins, however such groups consisted of very small portion of the population and almost always the elite of society (higher class). I obviously cannot offer you any statistics because no such polls were taken in the 19th century. However, if you read 19th century literature, and literature before that, you will find that very little authors echoed atheistic beliefs in comparison to now (yes, this may have also been because atheism was not as widely accepted back then as it is now). Not many records exist of atheistic communities/groups back in the 19th century and especially before that, in comparison to what we have now. Today however, atheistic beliefs are wide-spread. Currently there are approximately 850 million atheists in the world. In comparison, Christianity has 2 billion followers. Nothing close to this ratio was attainable before the 20th century.

Thats right, not 200 years ago, like you state, more like ~50years ago.

When did I state that Einstein died 200 years ago?

But since you're so fond of "credentialed individuals". Frank Sulloway and Michael Shermer from MIT/California State conducted a study in 1998 which found that out of "credentialed" U.S. adults (by that I mean 12% of which had PhDs and 62% of which had college degrees), 64% believed in God, and "there was a correlation indicating that religious conviction diminished with education level". Identical correspondences have been found in 39 studies carried out between 1927 and 2002, according to an article in Mensa Magazine. Similar findings were made in 1958 in a statistical meta-analysis from Professor Michael Argyle of Oxford University. He analyzed seven research studies that had investigated correlation between attitude to religion and measured intelligence among school and college students from the U.S.

But this makes me wonder now. Do you agree that every word in the bible is inspired by God and that the bible itself (not referring to interpretations) does not have any flaws? Do you also believe that Darwinism has no basis or support in science and that the world is close to 6000 years old? And finally do you believe that communion wafers are made of the body and blood of Jesus Christ? If you agree with these, chances are that you are too wound up in your beliefs to be reached by any sort of logic. This is not meant to be offensive, it is an honest question. I am not arguing in support of atheism here. I am observing the irrationality of the Bible.

[tapdov]

Do you also believe that Darwinism has no basis or support in science and that the world is close to 6000 years old?If you agree with these, chances are that you are too wound up in your beliefs to be reached by any sort of logic. This is not meant to be offensive, it is an honest question. I am not arguing in support of atheism here. I am observing the irrationality of the Bible.

Whats wrong with saying the world was created 6000 years ago?If your also going to believe that Adam was created on the sixth day,than obviously you must believe the world was created in a fully developed state.Otherwise,what was Adam supposed to eat?

[XVI]

It's been a very long time since I've read the bible, but didn't Adam, Eve, etc live a lot longer than us today.
If i remember correctly didn't they live like till they were 400years old or something?

[vertxx]

It's been a very long time since I've read the bible, but didn't Adam, Eve, etc live a lot longer than us today.
If i remember correctly didn't they live like till they were 400years old or something?

yes, and even Sara the wife of Abram still gave birth in her 100 age... and abram was 300 at that moment.. Long ago God still gave human a Long life... and i do believe why ppl now only life a short life like 100 at most maybe coz we did it to ourself, we damaging the earth with our polution, with wars, with biological weapons..

i do believe God existent, there r such big mystery out there, we're just merely a creature in this whole universe without knowing anything beyond the greatest and farest edge of what our mind can think.. surely there must be something out there... who started life, created time, created anything.. and a part of u might believe them as the theory of big bang, the darwins theory, or other explanations... but to me it merely simple that the unknown power that made us all is God...

by all means, in the spiritual life i do feel that God exist... if u want to dedicate ur life and search for it.. maybe u'll find it.. i believe that a creator will always want to be close with His creation...
I feel God, in my own ways.. maybe in a ways that i can't explain to u guys, but maybe it's just me with all my feeling toward something that i need to be with a greater power..

i do respect those who doesn't believe in God, i wont judge them as false or anything... all man have the right to "name" his believe... even for those who doesn't believe in God, i believe u still believe that there is something greater than u, than this universe.. maybe it's ur God?

[tapdov]

It's been a very long time since I've read the bible, but didn't Adam, Eve, etc live a lot longer than us today.
If i remember correctly didn't they live like till they were 400years old or something?

yes, and even Sara the wife of Abram still gave birth in her 100 age... and abram was 300 at that moment.. Long ago God still gave human a Long life... and i do believe why ppl now only life a short life like 100 at most maybe coz we did it to ourself, we damaging the earth with our polution, with wars, with biological weapons..

i do believe God existent, there r such big mystery out there, we're just merely a creature in this whole universe without knowing anything beyond the greatest and farest edge of what our mind can think.. surely there must be something out there... who started life, created time, created anything.. and a part of u might believe them as the theory of big bang, the darwins theory, or other explanations... but to me it merely simple that the unknown power that made us all is God...

by all means, in the spiritual life i do feel that God exist... if u want to dedicate ur life and search for it.. maybe u'll find it.. i believe that a creator will always want to be close with His creation...
I feel God, in my own ways.. maybe in a ways that i can't explain to u guys, but maybe it's just me with all my feeling toward something that i need to be with a greater power..

i do respect those who doesn't believe in God, i wont judge them as false or anything... all man have the right to "name" his believe... even for those who doesn't believe in God, i believe u still believe that there is something greater than u, than this universe.. maybe it's ur God?

Wasn't it Abraham that was 100 years old than?

I think gods are s.th for little children.

[vertxx]

Wasn't it Abraham that was 100 years old than?

yes im so sorry, he's 100 years old when his son ishak was born, and sara was 90...
he died at the age 176.

[sherlockx]

March 4th is Holy Experiment Day

Holy Experiment Day is a day to try something religious. It is a chance to try something, or ask for something, and to measure the results.

There are a lot of things that can be viewed as religious or holy experiments. Some examples could be:

* Pray for someone to get better
* Pray for snow
* Pray for your team to win the superbowl
* Pray someone will ask you on a date
* Try saying grace at dinner and see if others join you
* Try to get a person to attend religious services
* Plan to convert someone to your religion

In our examples above, God may grant all, some, or none of the desired results. He may be too busy with the problems of the world to make it snow. He definitely doesn't have a favorite sports team. The Lord truely works in mysterious ways. Sometimes, he has his own plans for an outcome that we may not understand.

We don't want to discourage holy experiments. Quite the opposite, we think they are good. We just believe you shouldn't judge the results. Your religious beliefs will be strengthen and you will be closer to God. So, participate in Holy Experiment Day to its fullest.

[sherlockx]

[tkteun]

I had somewhat of a discussion about this with a 'roommate' yesterday, coincidence

I don't care whether there is a supercreature or not. In the unlikely case there actually is a higher force AND it is actively concerned in mankind, it's obviously not giving away it's presence nor is it actively influencing our lives.

Why?

- Should I be fearfull of this presumable 'creator'?
- Should I waste time thinking about it?
- Should I waste time talking to it?

If it's actually monitoring my life on earth, is it going to be proud of me when I go to church on sundays?

I don't have any direct contact with it, that should mean that either it's not there or it respects me.

Why should I believe people that say they did have contact with it? Especially since they are very dominant and intrusive in many peoples lives.
Why should I let my government give more rights to people in an 'organized faith' or a church?

Personally I don't like others to tell me how to live my life, so I don't have any trust in any church.
It's nice that they use the heaven and hell symbology to make people fearfull of concurring with their instructions, fear politics always work (think of terrorism ).

I think the bible is a nice story book, fairy tales even.
Like sports games (on TV), there's always a half hour intro, then there's the match commented by some idiots, then there's the aftertalk which also takes like 1~2 hours and the next day you can read about it in the papers.

All the people you've heard talking about the game, were people that do NOT get paid to play the actual game. There's a 90 minute match and if you even get to hear the players themselves it's never longer than 3 minutes.


So, until I get word of the thing itself, I just try to do my best in making this world a better place by making people work together and removing fear from society.

Fear is, and had always been, our biggest enemy.

Actually religions are very easy:

With humans gods do exist.

Without humans there would be no god at all.

It is all fantasy and the humans create god in their mind.