[kareem]

If you've been tuning into the news of late, you're probably aware of what's happening in Palestine/Israel. I'd like to open it up to discussion to see where people stand. Present your points, provide the evidence, and let's have a nice discussion/debate.

Please maintain forum etiquette--any flaming, cursing, or unnecessary bashing will not be tolerated.

[h5550]

"Fake war"; compare it to what's happening now in Syria, then think about if it's serious or not.
More like smoke and mirrors for the upcoming Israeli elections, but you can count anytime on the Palestinians to give a "Casus Beli".

[★★★★★]

There is a stark difference between the two sides; Israel makes an honest attempt at avoiding civilian casualties when possible, Hamas does not and shoots rockets indiscriminately into Israeli territory. In the hypothetical scenario where Hamas were to cease all aggression, Israel would have no reason to bomb (as evidenced by the case of the West Bank; there is an absence of aggression and a presence of local government that enforces law and as a result Israel does not strike in the West Bank). If the Palestinians were to put down their weapons, there would be peace, if Israel were to put down theirs, there would be no Israel.

And yes, if Hamas tortures its own people, executes Fatah members and enforces a code of law that is considered medieval by any person of basic intellect, its fair game. As long as Iran murders political opponents and the Syrian regime decimates entire towns, the response from the Muslim community will be tepid. But god forbid those Jews return fire for (at current count) 1540 rockets randomly fired at their towns.

[kareem]

There is a stark difference between the two sides; Israel makes an honest attempt at avoiding civilian casualties when possible, Hamas does not and shoots rockets indiscriminately into Israeli territory.

Really? How do you explain the gunning down of a Palestinian kid playing soccer form an Israeli soldier IN a helicopter (something you will not hear in mainstream media). Oh, maybe the kid had a rock in his hands so they deemed him as a terrorist and killed him? This is nothing but a provocation, which Israel is excellent at setting. They do a provocation to which there is a retaliation, and then they wonder why.

In the hypothetical scenario where Hamas were to cease all aggression, Israel would have no reason to bomb (as evidenced by the case of the West Bank; there is an absence of aggression and a presence of local government that enforces law and as a result Israel does not strike in the West Bank).

This is absolutely nonsensical rubbish. Anybody who has been keeping up with what's happening knows this is very far from the truth. Recent prime example: on November 12th, all Palestinians groups and Israels in Gaza agreed to a truce and ceasefire, stopping the launch of all rockets. Two days later, Israel comes out and assassinates Ahmad Jabbari. Last March, Israel violated another ceasefire, assassinating the head of the Gaza Base Popular Resistance Committee. Back in 2008 during the elections, Israel broke a six month ceasefire with Hamas by attacking Gaza and launching Cast lead. Do explain yourself.

...there would be no Israel.

"We have no land, the Palestinians look vulnerable, so let's just go invade them and overtake their land!"

I think Sir Gerald (Jewish Politician) says it best: "My grandmother did not die to provide cover for Israeli soldiers murdering Palestinian grandmothers in Gaza. The present Israeli government ruthlessly and cynically exploits the continuing guilt from gentiles over the slaughter of Jews in the Holocaust as justification for their murder of Palestinians."

[kareem]

A brilliant quote by a brilliant mind:

[★★★★★]

Really? How do you explain the gunning down of a Palestinian kid playing soccer form an Israeli soldier IN a helicopter (something you will not hear in mainstream media). Oh, maybe the kid had a rock in his hands so they deemed him as a terrorist and killed him? This is nothing but a provocation, which Israel is excellent at setting. They do a provocation to which there is a retaliation, and then they wonder why.

The death of any innocent is tragic, but it doesn't change the fact that Israel, unlike Hamas, avoids civilian casualties whenever possible and even drops leaflets before the beginning of military campaigns asking civilians to stay away from Hamas buildings. When you shoot rockets from a school (example here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zmXXUOs27lI&feature=plcp of mortars fired from a UN school), you are committing a grave crime and displaying a compete disregard for human life in the hopes of manipulating the compassion of media and onlookers. Its an excellent win-win for Hamas, if Israel does nothing it gives Hamas the opportunity to keep firing but if Israel responds to the shelling of its towns it is bound to hit a populated area that will lead to the deaths of women and children, whose bodies will then be paraded across the streets as examples of Israeli atrocity.

This is absolutely nonsensical rubbish. Anybody who has been keeping up with what's happening knows this is very far from the truth. Recent prime example: on November 12th, all Palestinians groups and Israels in Gaza agreed to a truce and ceasefire, stopping the launch of all rockets. Two days later, Israel comes out and assassinates Ahmad Jabbari. Last March, Israel violated another ceasefire, assassinating the head of the Gaza Base Popular Resistance Committee. Back in 2008 during the elections, Israel broke a six month ceasefire with Hamas by attacking Gaza and launching Cast lead. Do explain yourself.

The ceasefire was agreed to begin on November 12th, as you correctly stated. Your argument unfortunately is moot; in spite of the ceasefire nine rockets were fired at southern Israel. Seven rockets were fired at the Negev region and two towards Ashkelon. This was certainly a vast reduction from the day before that, when, on November 11, over 100 rockets were fired into Israel from Gaza, but it was not the ceasefire you are claiming it to be. Israel, in turn, did not respond until November 14.

[★★★★★]

Something morbidly amusing:
The highly publicized death of four-year-old Mohammed Sadallah appeared to have been the result of a misfiring home-made rocket, not a bomb dropped by Israel .The child’s death on Friday figured prominently in media coverage after Hisham Kandil, the Egyptian prime minister, was filmed lifting his dead body out of an ambulance, saying "the boy, the martyr, whose blood is still on my hands and clothes, is something that we cannot keep silent about," before promising to defend the Palestinian people. Hamas officials and relatives said that four-year-old Gazan boy Mahmoud Sadallah, who died on 16 November, was killed in an Israeli airstrike. Experts from the Palestinian Centre for Human Rights examined the site and opined the explosion was caused by a Palestinian rocket, and the boy's mother acknowledged that Palestinian militants may have been responsible. A ballistics expert confirmed that "it is reasonable to say that this damage is from a relatively small explosion at close range.

The Arab news site Alarab Net released a photo on Nov. 18 which depicts three bloodied children and their mother lying on a floor, who were allegedly "massacred" in Gaza. Inciting a flurry of comments on Facebook. It turned out to be syrian Massacre Photos from Oct. 19 recycled as Gaza Tragedy.

Pro-Palestinian activists co-opted another photograph on Twitter identifying an injured infant held by a rescue worker as a "young injured Palestinian child". However, Facebook and Twitter users recognized it as that of a Israeli baby wounded by a Hamas rocket attack, the rescue worker’s vest saying "Kiryat Malachi" on it.

[jatboylover]

Israel The smaller Pomerian of America of course.
Irony in Ancient time Israel had Samson and in Modern times they have tomhawks from america.palestine doesn't stand a chance.

A simple question: What is the justification of the very existence of the country called Israel? Does the fact that Judaism originated in Palestine give the Jews a hereditary right to the land? Some Jews will give the argument that the Palestine is the "Promised Land" according to their scriptures. Following the phraseological tendencies of h5550, let me play the role of Advocatus Diaboli for a while and Let's say I believe the Jewish scriptures. Any learned scholar of Jewish scriptures will know that the Jews are only entitled to the Promised Land when they are being lead by the Messiah. Even today, many orthodox scholars believe that It's not the time for the Jews to inhabit the Promised Land.
But sadly, it is not at all about religion. It is as simple as a regional take-over. I mean no disrespect to proponents of any religion, but I believe that Jews were entirely wrong in displacing the inhabitants of Palestine, standing behind the power of US. Jews just manipulated the sympathies of world powers after the unfortunate incident of Holocaust (even though the idea of Zionism is a very old one).
In my humble opinion, Jews were welcome to live in their "Promised Land" if they wanted to; but they had no right to cause global dissension that resulted in an inevitable stream of martial violence. So, my dear friends, the side that provided the original Casus Beli wasn't Palestine, it was Israel.

[★★★★★]

A simple question: What is the justification of the very existence of the country called Israel? Does the fact that Judaism originated in Palestine give the Jews a hereditary right to the land? Some Jews will give the argument that the Palestine is the "Promised Land" according to their scriptures. Following the phraseological tendencies of h5550, let me play the role of Advocatus Diaboli for a while and Let's say I believe the Jewish scriptures. Any learned scholar of Jewish scriptures will know that the Jews are only entitled to the Promised Land when they are being lead by the Messiah. Even today, many orthodox scholars believe that It's not the time for the Jews to inhabit the Promised Land.
But sadly, it is not at all about religion. It is as simple as a regional take-over. I mean no disrespect to proponents of any religion, but I believe that Jews were entirely wrong in displacing the inhabitants of Palestine, standing behind the power of US. Jews just manipulated the sympathies of world powers after the unfortunate incident of Holocaust (even though the idea of Zionism is a very old one).
In my humble opinion, Jews were welcome to live in their "Promised Land" if they wanted to; but they had no right to cause global dissension that resulted in an inevitable stream of martial violence. So, my dear friends, the side that provided the original Casus Beli wasn't Palestine, it was Israel.

For the sake of this debate I think its best to avoid a general discussion of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and stick to what is currently going on. If we start discussing the whole thing starting from 1948 the discussion will quickly become very unfocused and the topic too broad, even though I agree that events are related and one thing leads to another. I would suggest you start a separate topic about whether the founding of Israel was right or wrong, and I will certainly respond to it, but lets keep this particular discussion about the recent developments.

I'm certain if I'd posted about atrocities committed by Muslims in 13th cetury, the post would've been all too relevant.

[★★★★★]

I'm certain if I'd posted about atrocities committed by Muslims in 13th cetury, the post would've been all to relevant.

Nope

[Tattle]

+1 I agree!

I would agree in most cases but not in this one. A guy breaks down your door and kicks you out of the door, I'm pretty sure that you'd be very eager to "just get along" with the man. Uh, and can anyone please explain why the middle placard has a logo of Mercedes (Deathly Hallows?!) on it?