Badly drawn sign of peace?

As the one living far away from the region and just catching some random news from the media, I think that in many cases Israel provoke the agression of palestinians...

Badly drawn sign of peace?

As the one living far away from the region and just catching some random news from the media, I think that in many cases Israel provoke the agression of palestinians...

I thought that the guy was making some reference to the great, amiable relationship between Voldemort and Dumbledore.I wasn't even aware of the presence of the sign of peace. I should've known it, after all peaceful is my last name. Thanks for the explanation, and for all it is worth:

[Tattle]

I'm certain if I'd posted about atrocities committed by Muslims in 13th cetury, the post would've been all to relevant.

Nope

As stimulative as these discussions are, all of them just boil down to the same conclusion. One person says yes, some else says no. No one every really changes their opinion. They just root themselves deeper in their ideas. I pity people that jump and point their fingers blaming others. My respect level would go up for both Palestinians and Israelis once they realize that both of them are to blame for the troubles that both cause.

[kareem]

The death of any innocent is tragic, but it doesn't change the fact that Israel, unlike Hamas, avoids civilian casualties whenever possible and even drops leaflets before the beginning of military campaigns asking civilians to stay away from Hamas buildings. When you shoot rockets from a school (example here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zmXXUOs27lI&feature=plcp of mortars fired from a UN school), you are committing a grave crime and displaying a compete disregard for human life in the hopes of manipulating the compassion of media and onlookers. Its an excellent win-win for Hamas, if Israel does nothing it gives Hamas the opportunity to keep firing but if Israel responds to the shelling of its towns it is bound to hit a populated area that will lead to the deaths of women and children, whose bodies will then be paraded across the streets as examples of Israeli atrocity.

I'll let points one and two debunk your propagandized myth.

The ceasefire was agreed to begin on November 12th, as you correctly stated. Your argument unfortunately is moot; in spite of the ceasefire nine rockets were fired at southern Israel. Seven rockets were fired at the Negev region and two towards Ashkelon. This was certainly a vast reduction from the day before that, when, on November 11, over 100 rockets were fired into Israel from Gaza, but it was not the ceasefire you are claiming it to be. Israel, in turn, did not respond until November 14.

Several sources, including Israeli media news sources would claim otherwise:
http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/op ... a-1.260375, 9th paragraph: "Six months ago Israel asked and received a cease-fire from Hamas. It unilaterally violated it when it blew up a tunnel, while still asking Egypt to get the Islamic group to hold its fire."
Another: http://ww4report.com/node/6572
One more: http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opi ... 67173.html
List goes on.

As stimulative as these discussions are, all of them just boil down to the same conclusion. One person says yes, some else says no. No one every really changes their opinion. They just root themselves deeper in their ideas. I pity people that jump and point their fingers blaming others. My respect level would go up for both Palestinians and Israelis once they realize that both of them are to blame for the troubles that both cause.

My intention isn't to modify ★★★★★'s views and I think he can say the same. You can't just go about these things by saying both are to blame or I don't side with any of them. Beautiful saying by Desmond Tutu, "If you are neutral in situations of injustice, you have chosen the side of the oppressor. If an elephant has its foot on the tail of a mouse and you say that you are neutral, the mouse will not appreciate your neutrality."

I would also like to refrain from this being a historic argument, but I can't help but share this quote from Noam Chomsky:
"You can't defend yourself when you're militarily occupying someone else's land. That's not defense. Call it what you like, it's not defense.
(Chomsky is Jewish fwiw).

Some mind-boggling stats in an infograph:
http://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-s ... 7416_o.jpg

And suddenly after Kareem's post, all the pro-Israel posters have stopped posting. Facts have power.

[★★★★★]

I'll let points one and two debunk your propagandized myth.

Point one has nothing to do with Israel being forced (or not forced) to respond to rocket fire, it discusses what started each burst of fighting. The author claims that Israel/the media claims it responded "when 4 Israeli soldiers were wounded by Palestinian fire". Nobody claims that. Israel responded because it believed that an extensive campaign was needed to halt consistent and indiscriminate firing of rockets at towns, or rather the firing of over 1200 rockets from the beginning of 2012 before the operation began. The same scenario played out during the Gaza War during the winter of 2008–2009, after which there was a significant decline in rocket attacks for a long time. One has to ask; Hamas has been involved in several very similar conflicts during which, every time, its territory is devastated, population massacred, etc. As far as wars go, Hamas gets massively wrecked every time (and claims victory when the ratio of casualties is 150:1). Yet it would rather continue rearming and firing missiles each time, only to eventually bear witness to a campaign that doesn't really kill any Israelis, but devastates it's population, rather than accepting the fact that Israel is not going to disappear and that if it wants an independent state, it first has to recognize Israel's right to exist. The fact that Palestine has a right to exist is unarguable, Israel has offered a Palestinian state repeatedly and the question whether Palestine should or should not exist is neither a serious one in Israeli government nor among the population (if you claim otherwise, you're clueless). With the exception of fringe idiots who exist in every country it is widely accepted among Israelis that Palestine should exist. Hamas however is unable to say the same for the Jewish state.

Morals aside let's pursue a rational discussion for the sake of argument. Hamas are the worst fucking negotiators in existence. Negotiations are characterized by several general concepts; there is a side with a certain advantage and a side at a disadvantage. The side at a disadvantage has more of an incentive to negotiate to turn around its disadvantage. Israel has a vast advantage, every war between Hamas and Israel has been a joke in which Hamas uses cheap, homemade rockets, while Israel uses a military funded by a $14.5 billion a year budget. Israel has a successful economy, its people enjoy high incomes, and Palestinians in Gaza enjoy... nothing really. Hamas's position is based on a single thing: senseless pride. There isn't a negotiator in the world who would go, hey, we can bomb the shit out of them and they cant really do anything, so let's totally stop preventive measures, lift the blockade and hope that they abandon their official position of being dedicated to the destruction of the state of Israel and stop lobbing rockets every once in a while. It's simply a senseless position for Israel to take. Hamas on the other hand has everything to gain from abandoning its position and if it truly cared about its people, more than it cares about not looking like a bunch of pussies (even though they get whipped in every conflict either way), they would negotiate. To put matters in perspective, if Hamas had more Jews in its leadership, falling prices on the Gaza-city stock exchange would force them to reach an agreement within two months.

Point two is a continuation of what you mentioned in the second paragraph, which I am responding to below.

The ceasefire was agreed to begin on November 12th, as you correctly stated. Your argument unfortunately is moot; in spite of the ceasefire nine rockets were fired at southern Israel. Seven rockets were fired at the Negev region and two towards Ashkelon. This was certainly a vast reduction from the day before that, when, on November 11, over 100 rockets were fired into Israel from Gaza, but it was not the ceasefire you are claiming it to be. Israel, in turn, did not respond until November 14.

Several sources, including Israeli media news sources would claim otherwise:
http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/op ... a-1.260375, 9th paragraph: "Six months ago Israel asked and received a cease-fire from Hamas. It unilaterally violated it when it blew up a tunnel, while still asking Egypt to get the Islamic group to hold its fire."
Another: http://ww4report.com/node/6572
One more: http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opi ... 67173.html
List goes on.

If you cared to look you'd have noticed that you're quoting an article from 2008. Your understanding of current events is so slim that you mistook something from four years ago as a recent analysis (the fact that it mentioned Shalit in the header apparently didn't give it away). The ceasefire was in fact agreed upon on November 12th (as you stated before you noticed the truth ran contrary to your argument) and the first violation came from the Gazan side.

This site will disperse the common myth that Israeli soldiers "prevent casualties when possible". (http://www.breakingthesilence.org.il/)
Israel is NOT fighting to protect its sovereignty, what is happening in that particular region of the Middle East is baseless carnage of Muslims. The Israelis are not angels. The treatment of Muslims by Israelis is no different from treatment of Jews by Nazis or treatment of black people by pro-Apartheid South Africans. Today's media just doesn't agree because the super powers of world are blatantly backing Israel's carnage.

[★★★★★]

The treatment of Muslims by Israelis is no different from treatment of Jews by Nazis or treatment of black people by pro-Apartheid South Africans. Today's media just doesn't agree because the super powers of world are blatantly backing Israel's carnage.

You're right, Israel's parliament does not have Muslims in it, Muslims living in Israel are regularly rounded up and forced to dig holes then piled onto existing corpses and shot by a machine gunner up above, and Dr. Abramowitz regularly performs experiments in which he cuts off the limbs of Palestinians and sees how long they can survive. What are you retarded?

The treatment of Muslims by Israelis is no different from treatment of Jews by Nazis or treatment of black people by pro-Apartheid South Africans. Today's media just doesn't agree because the super powers of world are blatantly backing Israel's carnage.

You're right, Israel's parliament does not have Muslims in it, Muslims living in Israel are regularly rounded up and forced to dig holes then piled onto existing corpses and shot by a machine gunner up above, and Dr. Abramowitz regularly performs experiments in which he cuts off the limbs of Palestinians and sees how long they can survive. What are you retarded?

I assume that you meant "What, are you retarded?" or "What are you, retarded?". I assure you, sir, that I'm not a person who can be considered a retard in any way. I thought that this argument was supposed to be a civil one but seeing how you are using disgraceful and reprehensible remarks, I must've misread the signs. If you don't think that I'm right, than we can agree to disagree but please do not try to resort to cyberbullying to promote your agenda; which, by the way, is considered a violation of forum rules.
Now, for your argument. If a few Jews in Nazi Germany were given place in Hitler's inner circle, would it have justified the killing of all the other Jews. Not much different from the fact that even if Israel is trying to cull out Muslims from its vicinity, it still gives some psuedo-Muslims place in the Knesset (provided that your sarcastic comment has some truth to it).
Israelis don't force Muslims to dig their own graves because manual labor is too slow to match the tempo of killings done by Israel. They prefer to burn 'em alive.
If human experimentation wasn't illegal according to the international law, I'm sure that there are plenty of scientific geniuses among the great and compassionate Israelis who would jump at the occasion of dissecting the pathetic Muslims, after all what are they compared to the advance of science that could happen from such experimentation.
In fact, I propose that the international laws regarding human experimentation should be modified so that the people of Gaza are compelled to provide at least 500 worthless Muslims in the name of science for experimentation. Maybe that will be enough to convince benevolent people like yourself that the Jews are getting the chance to channel their pent-up emotions from the holocaust for the betterment of the world by removing the useless scum that the world knows as Muslims.

May I ask you, just hypothetically, if you were to conduct peace negotiations what would be your requests to the other party?

Temporary ones? Complete cease-fire (and I mean complete!) from both sides. Allowing free trades across international borders, as well as allowing the people of Gaza to freely cross into the Israel (after proper security clearance of course).
As for a more permanent solution to the continued friction, I'd propose Union of the two states, equal opportunity for Muslims, Jews and other minorities to participate in government and removal of the facade of a state based on religion. Palestinian territory is sacred to adherents of all the three Abrahamic religions, no need to monopolize it to Judaism alone.
Of course, I'm not an expert on political or religious matters, but in my mind it is the best plan of action.

[★★★★★]

I assume that you meant "What, are you retarded?" or "What are you, retarded?". I assure you, sir, that I'm not a person who can be considered a retard in any way. I thought that this argument was supposed to be a civil one but seeing how you are using disgraceful and reprehensible remarks, I must've misread the signs. If you don't think that I'm right, than we can agree to disagree but please do not try to resort to cyberbullying to promote your agenda; which, by the way, is considered a violation of forum rules.
Now, for your argument. If a few Jews in Nazi Germany were given place in Hitler's inner circle, would it have justified the killing of all the other Jews. Not much different from the fact that even if Israel is trying to cull out Muslims from its vicinity, it still gives some psuedo-Muslims place in the Knesset (provided that your sarcastic comment has some truth to it).
Israelis don't force Muslims to dig their own graves because manual labor is too slow to match the tempo of killings done by Israel. They prefer to burn 'em alive.
If human experimentation wasn't illegal according to the international law, I'm sure that there are plenty of scientific geniuses among the great and compassionate Israelis who would jump at the occasion of dissecting the pathetic Muslims, after all what are they compared to the advance of science that could happen from such experimentation.
In fact, I propose that the international laws regarding human experimentation should be modified so that the people of Gaza are compelled to provide at least 500 worthless Muslims in the name of science for experimentation. Maybe that will be enough to convince benevolent people like yourself that the Jews are getting the chance to channel their pent-up emotions from the holocaust for the betterment of the world by removing the useless scum that the world knows as Muslims.

Hey idiot who tried to correct my grammar. You spelled pseudo wrong and its "then we can agree" not "than we can agree." The level of retardation of your beliefs is also such that arguing with you is unnecessary (by the way I was speaking to kareem earlier and he thinks you're a retard as well).

The treatment of Muslims by Israelis is no different from treatment of Jews by Nazis

Anybody who in compete seriousness believes that the murder of 6 million people in death camps is no different from the current situation is beyond reason. There wouldn't be a Gaza strip, not to mention the over 100,000 Palestinians who chose to legally immigrate to Israel, if the two had any resemblance. You have such a fundamental lack of understanding of what you're dealing with that the support of people like you for the Palestinian cause discredits the entire movement. You're 18 so you have a long way to go, hopefully you'll smarten up eventually.

Also nobody is going to stop the verbal abuse. Mobilism is part of the Zionist conspiracy.

[★★★★★]

Temporary ones? Complete cease-fire (and I mean complete!) from both sides. Allowing free trades across international borders, as well as allowing the people of Gaza to freely cross into the Israel (after proper security clearance of course).
As for a more permanent solution to the continued friction, I'd propose Union of the two states, equal opportunity for Muslims, Jews and other minorities to participate in government and removal of the facade of a state based on religion. Palestinian territory is sacred to adherents of all the three Abrahamic religions, no need to monopolize it to Judaism alone.
Of course, I'm not an expert on political or religious matter, but in my mind it is the best plan of action.

In 2005, Israel unilaterally withdrew from Gaza and forcefully evicted all Jewish settlers (around 9000), troops and personnel. The Israeli government went to great lengths to force Jews out of the Palestinian land (there are many videos of how the army went in and dragged Jewish families, women and children out). This was done in the hopes that with the Jews off their land, Palestinians would make attempts to build a state, create work opportunities, and that the interest in their own well-being would overshadow their desire to continue waging war. There was no blockade yet at the time, though Israel retained the right to control its border with Gaza (just like Germany can control its border with Poland in any way it sees fit). Palestinians had a chance to build a state and initially the Palestinian authority ruled Gaza. Yet in 2006, Hamas, whose stated intent was still the destruction of Israel, took over control of Gaza. At this point not only Israel, but also the majority of the EU, US and other civilized countries enacted an economic blockade on the Gaza strip. By 2007 Gaza fighters were going around the strip rounding up Fatah supporters and executing them in the streets. That same year rocket attacks on Israel began in earnest with a total of 2,807 rockets fired indiscriminately from the Gaza strip onto Israeli towns. By 2008 that number was over 3000. Given its experience with withdrawing from Palestinian territory, Israel has little reason to want to do it again.

I assume that you meant "What, are you retarded?" or "What are you, retarded?". I assure you, sir, that I'm not a person who can be considered a retard in any way. I thought that this argument was supposed to be a civil one but seeing how you are using disgraceful and reprehensible remarks, I must've misread the signs. If you don't think that I'm right, than we can agree to disagree but please do not try to resort to cyberbullying to promote your agenda; which, by the way, is considered a violation of forum rules.
Now, for your argument. If a few Jews in Nazi Germany were given place in Hitler's inner circle, would it have justified the killing of all the other Jews. Not much different from the fact that even if Israel is trying to cull out Muslims from its vicinity, it still gives some psuedo-Muslims place in the Knesset (provided that your sarcastic comment has some truth to it).
Israelis don't force Muslims to dig their own graves because manual labor is too slow to match the tempo of killings done by Israel. They prefer to burn 'em alive.
If human experimentation wasn't illegal according to the international law, I'm sure that there are plenty of scientific geniuses among the great and compassionate Israelis who would jump at the occasion of dissecting the pathetic Muslims, after all what are they compared to the advance of science that could happen from such experimentation.
In fact, I propose that the international laws regarding human experimentation should be modified so that the people of Gaza are compelled to provide at least 500 worthless Muslims in the name of science for experimentation. Maybe that will be enough to convince benevolent people like yourself that the Jews are getting the chance to channel their pent-up emotions from the holocaust for the betterment of the world by removing the useless scum that the world knows as Muslims.

Hey idiot who tried to correct my grammar. You spelled pseudo wrong and its "then we can agree" not "than we can agree." The level of retardation of your beliefs is also such that arguing with you is unnecessary (by the way I was speaking to kareem earlier and he thinks you're a retard as well).

The treatment of Muslims by Israelis is no different from treatment of Jews by Nazis

Anybody who in compete seriousness believes that the murder of 6 million people in death camps is no different from the current situation is beyond reason. There wouldn't be a Gaza strip, not to mention the over 100,000 Palestinians who chose to legally immigrate to Israel, if the two had any resemblance. You have such a fundamental lack of understanding of what you're dealing with that the support of people like you for the Palestinian cause discredits the entire movement. You're 18 so you have a long way to go, hopefully you'll smarten up eventually.

Also nobody is going to stop the verbal abuse. Mobilism is part of the Zionist conspiracy.

Oh, thank you for your humane and considerate message. As a non-native and completely self-taught speaker of English, I think I'm entitled to make some errors. Etiquette and decorum, on the other hand, are a part of universal understanding. Sadly, you seem to be under-instructed about these things. I'm not going to badmouth you despite of the fact that you are using extremely provocative and derogatory comments about me. It's not in my nature. As the age-old adage goes: Dogs bark, but the caravan goes on.

Thank you for answering me, Leo Pacificus, even if I'm the most retarded in this kind of discussion. It explained me a little bit. I think I will ask you once more and to hell what the five stars general or whoever might think if they were to read it!

How is it possible to create the Union of two States? Aren't Palestinians and Jews too different, I mean, historically, culturally and socially? Jews have their identity as a separate Nation from such an ancient times and it is so strong. Isn't it possible to have two separate states in peaceful relationship?