It would've been possible in any other case but let's not delude ourselves: Muslims, as a group, (and I am one) are very inimical people. They feel strongly about the region of Jerusalem due to religious ties and I don't think any sort of peace is possible in a divided Palestine unless Muslims are completely obliterated from the region (makes the division a bit useless, eh?). This is the approach that Gilad Sharon is uses when he says that "We need to flatten entire neighborhoods in Gaza. Flatten all of Gaza". Or when Eli Yishai states that ""We must blow Gaza back to the Middle Ages, destroying all the infrastructure including roads and water."
Doesn't seem too humanitarian to you, does it? It won't seem so too any person with a heart. How can you differentiate between this and what happened in Berlin?

Regarding your notion that Jews and Muslims are too different, I'll have to say that I disagree with you. Let me state an example from history: Hinduism is a pantheic religion, with a pantheon so large that it makes the Greco-Roman deities look like just a handful. Islam, au contraire, is a strictly monotheistic religion. It makes the monotheism of Christians look like downright polytheism. You can't imagine two more different religions. And yet, Hindus and Muslims coexisted together in the Indian Subcontinent for a millennium and still continue to do so.

As compared to that, Jews and Muslims are very similiar. Both religions are monotheistic, both share the same religious annals and If you think that no interaction took place between Jews and Muslims historically, please reconsider it. Jews and Muslims coexisted peacefully before Zionists came along with their separatist notions.

I, for one, truly believe that Muslims and Jews can live peacefully together if given the chance to collaborate equally for a state. Of course, there will be friction between the extremist factions of the two religions but this sort of thing happens between any two groups trying to coexist. I regularly interact with Jewish people online including a very distinguished media personality, author and a professor at the University of Massachusetts in a very amiable way inspite of the differences in our world-view and opinions.

Well, that's what I've got to say about this matter. I don't think that you are a retarded person. And as an online acquaintance of mine said to me quite recently:

When you cannot convince with your reason you resort to insult, everybody who matters knows that.

Everyone should be allowed to express their views without becoming a target of derision, disdain and contempt.

[★★★★★]

The problem remains that you fail to understand the fabric of Israeli or Jewish society. The first I heard of Sharon's angry tirade was when friends of mine on facebook began posting it, outraged by the statements he made. The next day his piece was denounced all across the Israeli media, not just from the liberal newspapers like Haaretz, but the Jerusalem Post (where the piece was published in the Opinions section), Ynet and others. Nobody aside from a small group of clueless idiots (who luckily do not hold sway in Israeli politics) was supporting Sharon's views. Moreover, Sharon's father the prime minister would never have said anything close to the views expressed by his son. I'm still baffled by what Sharon's reason for the post was; either he's truly delusional or he wanted to outrage everyone collectively, hoping that it would propel his name forward and allow him to somehow enter politics as part of some far-right party. Luckily, the guy is still literally a farmer.

And you continue with this:

How can you differentiate between this and what happened in Berlin?

What exactly do you think happened in Berlin? Apparently you're so clueless that you think the Holocaust occurred in the capital. I urge you to read up on the matter, even wiki will do. I genuinely think you fail to comprehend how retarded you and everyone who makes the argument comparing Israel to WWII Germany sounds. There is a reason no person of intellect uses that line in debate regardless of how much he disdains Israeli policies.

Also, mixing in au contraire in the middle of an English sentence does not make you sound smarter and hasn't since the 19th century, Orwell has an essay on the topic from 1946. It makes it sound like you're insecure and trying too hard.

[jatboylover]

My 2 cents too and in rough english too so pardon my errors :
Life is not fair.
you two self assumed intellectuals fighting each other on some forum on the web for a problem which your seven generation could not solve if they sit together.
where this discussion is leading and what will be achieved of it?
just 2 nerds bitching here and thinking that they are solving a world problem here, and satisfying their egos.is it leading for something constructive?
atleast leo was civil but 5 star behaved like an old hog insulting him , but my advice is to both of you is that get a life and if you really want to do something worthwhile then help poor and hungry people in your own country and try to do community service at your local.

you all are just having an argument for sake of an argument.

[h5550]

The whole topic is what both mediawhores(I&P) want: Attention for their fake war.

[★★★★★]

jatboylover: you fail to understand the concept of a debate. Discussions of this sort do not lead to a conclusion but to the development of viewpoints, both among the debate partakers and those reading. Nobody here thinks they are solving something.

[Tattle]

Nobody here thinks they are solving something.

May I remind everyone here that it is physically impossible to beat Star Man in any conversation. Even when the conversation is non-productive/solving nothing.

[jatboylover]

jatboylover: you fail to understand the concept of a debate.

sorry if i didn't understand that it was a debate because in my country debates are civil.i have never heard a debate in which people call others retarded
and

Discussions of this sort do not lead to a conclusion but to the development of viewpoints, both among the debate partakers and those reading.

that's my point, these puny things are talked all over world but no one is taking a step towards real welfare.
i don't think that by development of your views anyone will be helped but if you help a poor person in ur vicinity then atleast that person can be happy.
people need to learn something from " a coffie to wall " of venice.

And you continue with this:

How can you differentiate between this and what happened in Berlin?

What exactly do you think happened in Berlin? Apparently you're so clueless that you think the Holocaust occurred in the capital. I urge you to read up on the matter, even wiki will do. I genuinely think you fail to comprehend how retarded you and everyone who makes the argument comparing Israel to WWII Germany sounds. There is a reason no person of intellect uses that line in debate regardless of how much he disdains Israeli policies.

Also, mixing in au contraire in the middle of an English sentence does not make you sound smarter and hasn't since the 19th century, Orwell has an essay on the topic from 1946. It makes it sound like you're insecure and trying too hard.

I was not talking about the Holocaust, I was referring to the Wall of Berlin. Rings any bells? And the Wall of Berlin was NOT erected during the Second World War. It was constructed in 1961, dividing the Eastern and Western part of the city and preventing most transport between the two parts.
I will not degrade you with base insults, but I have to say that you need to brush up your history. I gave the analogy while talking about the border between Gaza and Israel, not in relation of the war crimes commited by Israel. It is a very simple allusion, any sergeant would've been able to understand that, let alone a five star general. I am genuinely startled that you are calling me a retard.

Also, you do need to brush up on your linguistics. Au contraire is still used in mainstream English (much like au pair, au fait, haute couture, coup d'etat and a lot of other French-derived words), often in a literary or humorous vein. I still can't understand why are you trying to degrade me by attacking on the points that have nothing to do with the discussion. People who tend to talk in a civil way are not insecure, they are liberal and humane. People who resort to name-calling and intimidation are insecure and try to instill their macho image in others' minds. Any second grade student should know that.

I completely agree with the people who wrote that this debate is a non-productive one (most of the debates are, in my humble, retarded opinion) but I think that such discussions help to broaden one's mind. At least until the people involved try to maintain any semblance of civility and respect, which some people are clearly unable to do.

I think that the Five Star General has bright future in psychiatry, seeing how he has diagnosed my mental incapacity without even looking at me. Way to go, Freud! (Don't point out in your condescending way that Freud was not a psychiatrist but a psychoanalyst. I already know that)

-Leo Pacificus
Video meliora, proboque, deteriora sequor

P.S. You had no reason to poke your nose into the discussion, my message was targeted to siluasap. Please try not to post if you aren't able to contribute something healthy to the discussion which, incidentally, doesn't include invective remarks about the level of intelligence of posters.

[★★★★★]

It's called the Berlin Wall. It's not the best of analogies since it would mean that mostly Israelis are trying to cross into Gaza, and because there was no economic blockade. A better point would have been to compare to the Berlin blockade.

Also, you do need to brush up on your linguistics. Au contraire is still used in mainstream English (much like au pair, au fait, haute couture, coup d'etat and a lot of other French-derived words), often in a literary or humorous vein.

Read: https://www.mtholyoke.edu/acad/intrel/orwell46.htm
It is even more true nowadays.

What I write is relevant to the discussion and you will note that with the exception of pointing out your use of French in English is not helping you, I have stayed very much on topic. If you made more intelligent posts I wouldn't call you a retard. I have no idea what your last post is about, it sounded like you were getting angry and bashing your head against the keyboard trying to prove your intellect. Please stay on topic.

[medic97]

I generally avoid these discussions as most people cant seem to have common sense and reason like normal people. However, 2 things I will mention.

1) "USA 9/11 Israel 24/7".
Terrorism, which is the only real war going on in Israel cannot be tolerated. Fact is blowing yourself up on a bus or a busy street is not conventional warfare, it's terrorism! and anyone who says a country should take it laying down must have never experienced a form of Terrorism happen to their people.
Israel cannot be blamed for the reckless abandon of the Palestinians. As a country they have a right to protect themselves and fact is whether you want to hear it or not if a family in Gaza gets hurt from a bomb, well thats an unfortunate casualty. But I dont hear you cry out when a Gaza rocket kills an Israeli family, no not one cry but instead a party in the streets!!! Any people who can rejoice at the suffering of others do not have the right to complain when they bring things onto themselves.

2) There is no such thing as the ARAB-Israeli Conflict. That would indicate as-if Israel has a controle in the conflict, which isn't the case. Israel is in a reactive=defensive posture and not in an offensive=Attack posture. What does exist is the ARAB WAR AGAINST THE JEWS and Israel. They refuse to accept the existence and the right to exist of Israel and have tried to surround them and push them into the sea (failing both times I might add). How can you claim to want peace with a country you say doesn't exist?...

Truth is the only way true peace will happen in Israel, is if the Palestinians integrate themselves into the democratic society of Israel. As many Israeli-Arabs do who live very comfortably. Or move to the other Arab countries that reject them since they prefer to keep this lie going. There is no reason for Israel to give up any land, it would be the equivalent of England coming to the USA and trying to take its territories which they lost in a conventional war of independence. It is no different in Israel an offensive was started to kill all the Jews, they fought back for their land and WON, created a country that is democratic and thrives on the world stage. Next time Palestinians dont want to lose land they shouldn't fight a war they cant win.

As a Jew, Former Israeli Soldier and American. Im positive you wont listen to any words that dont fit your way of thinking. One day the world will realize the truth the way it truly is. Not the way the Media portrays it and not the way either side portrays it...

[h5550]

Humor:
A dialogue in 2013

(Location: Tel-Aviv. Time: Sarah Palin's first official foreign trip after the victory in the 2012 U.S. presidential elections.)

[Sarah Palin]: Mr. Prime Minister, now that we are finally face to face, I would like to thank on behalf of every American patriot
for the generous services that are done you to our party. It was very helpful to us that several times during your visits
to our country in 2011-2012, called attention to my predecessor's foreign policy's incorrect and arrogant nature, and hurt
his popularity this way. I would like to take this opportunity now to ask your and your country support in a totally different problem.
Surely you know that our immigration situation is critical, since in Mexico the power struggle between drug cartels is extremely intensified,
and the consequent massive immigration wave flooded the areas of the South-Western US. This is not only an economical problem,
but also cause problems with the national security, and there is no need of this kind of problems, since the stagnating economic
talks with China led to panic in the stock market. The decisive action against illegal immigration in this situation can not be delayed further,
otherwise our voters ultimately withdraw their support, or even more serious consequences we will face in the internal politics.
When we examined the possible measures, the State Department has advised me that you have much more experience in the field of border
security then we has; as example, the wall built in occupied territories lived up to the expectations.
Our government has decided to use your methods, but is to be expected that the opposition will obstruct, therefore
we need all the support, including from our main foreign ally.
Therefore, I ask you, in the coming weeks to make one of your famous tours, talk to the public about Israel's strict and effective
immigration and border security policy, then make a statement that you not only support the southern border security wall idea,
but you will give all the help to design, build and setup the wall, then train the support personnel. The liberal media will never dare to go
against an idea that can stand up next to you. I hope you accept, since we have helped you a lot in recent decades.

[Benjamin Netanyahu]: It is very flattering, honorable President; of course, I can assure you that Israel will give you all the support
which stands in his power. However, in the spirit of reciprocity, we can do so only under such conditions, as those you have imposed on us.
As regards your problems related to Mexico, for Israel only the mutually acceptable peaceful settlement is considered appropriate.
This is only possible if you waive California, Nevada and all the other areas that your country assigned from your southern neighbor
in the offensive war in 1848, areas where the white Protestant population is already in minority.

[Sarah Palin]: Well, this is undoubtedly a very beautiful historic gesture towards our friends in Mexico,
but I'm afraid I could not carry this through the the Congress, even with your support.
On the other hand, this demand can be easily denied with the support of the general public,
based on the fact that our borders cannot be defended in this situation.

[Benjamin Netanyahu]: This is always a compromise acceptable to all impied parts.
Add the territory exchange solution to my proposal, which you also supported in our case.
All your territory outside the 1848 borders, which is economically valuable, give the white Protestant enclave status,
which continues to remain part of the United States.

[Sarah Palin] I think this is acceptable for our voters. And what do you think to give in return for Mexico in exchange for this enclaves?

[Benjamin Netanyahu]: I think that Detroit, New Orleans, Harlem and Mississippi State are perfect for this purpose.

[Sarah Palin]: Brilliant idea!


Notes: Corrected Google translation, source(in Hungarian):http://katpol.blog.hu/2011/06/07/egy_parbeszed_2013_bol

[medic97]

@h5550

Thank you very much as this gave a big laugh when i needed it most. But really l like how it highlights the main points of why israel should not have to give back land conquered in a war that was trying to obliterate them from this earth.

You people gotta be kidding me. Conquered? Colonized is more like it. If black people of South Africa attacked, lets say, Brazil during Apartheid could they've justified the take-over by saying that they did so "in a dispute that was trying to obliterate them from this earth".
If Jews really had the guts to conquer, why didn't they conquer Germany, the country that was "trying to obliterate them from this earth". What had the Palestinians done to warrant the wrath of the mighty Jews.
I think the fault is in Muslims. As Shakespeare adequately puts it: "He wouldn't be a wolf, if the Romans didn't act like sheep" (Pardon any misquotation. I'm only human, and a very retarded one at that). Replace the "He" by Zionists and "Romans" by Palestinians. You get the picture.
(For those who think that Zionists were-or are-some sort of pacifist angels, please read up on Jacob Israel de Haan.)

[Please counter my arguments with civility and logic, don't be an asshole. Pardon the language.]

[★★★★★]

You people gotta be kidding me. Conquered? Colonized is more like it. If black people of South Africa attacked, lets say, Brazil during Apartheid could they've justified the take-over by saying that they did so "in a dispute that was trying to obliterate them from this earth".
If Jews really had the guts to conquer, why didn't they conquer Germany, the country that was "trying to obliterate them from this earth". What had the Palestinians done to warrant the wrath of the mighty Jews.
I think the fault is in Muslims. As Shakespeare adequately puts it: "He wouldn't be a wolf, if the Romans didn't act like sheep" (Pardon any misquotation. I'm only human, and a very retarded one at that). Replace the "He" by Zionists and "Romans" by Palestinians. You get the picture.
(For those who think that Zionists were-or are-some sort of pacifist angels, please read up on Jacob Israel de Haan.)

[Please counter my arguments with civility and logic, don't be an asshole. Pardon the language.]

Israel defeated every state bordering it several times over; it remains a grave humiliation in the Arab conscience to know that this tiny land that is and was outnumbered 60:1 somehow wrecks every one of its neighbors in every single military conflict it has. Semantically we could say it just defended its own territory, but that would mean that it is indeed its territory. It conquered the Gaza strip and Sinai from Egypt, the Golan Heights from Syria, the West Bank from Jordan. So yes, it did conquer.

I read your statement about Brazil and South Africa and have no idea what you mean. Nor do I think I need to respond to why Jews are more interested in having a country in Israel than in Germany. I think this post of yours is the most retarded one yet. It's a tragedy how you genuinely believe that you bear some intellect, and because in reality you lack all intellect, you cannot discover just how stupid you really are. It's like living in the Matrix.

Why weren't they able to hold their own during the Third Reich, if the Jews were so belicose? If you are pretending that the Zionists "conquered" the territory by themselves, then I must say that you are wrong. With USA backing them, they could've gone one on one with USSR itself and come out unscathed. Its all about the kind of allies a group has.(Remember the good, old Taliban?)

I read your statement about Brazil and South Africa and have no idea what you mean.

I know, analogies aren't your strong suit.

Nor do I think I need to respond to why Jews are more interested in having a country in Israel than in Germany.

Zionists. Well of course you don't have to answer, I asked the question rhetorically. (Even answered it in the next line) Promised Land? Enough with that particular facade. Palestine was weak, offering no particular resistance, the religious excuse was already there; so why not kick the Muslims out and get comfy in the "Promised Land". Germany, on the other hand, could kick ass, as people like to put it nowadays. Simple strategy, go for the limping prey.
The actual point that I was trying to make was that the Palestinians were not directly involved with the Nazis (I think we can exclude Hajj Amin Hussieni, whose followers, at 10,000, were mostly Bosnian).

It's a tragedy how you genuinely believe that you bear some intellect

Leave the intellect to the intellectuals. I'm just a guy with average IQ (some even debate that notion) with time to spare. I totally agree that I have an extremely limited knowledge of politics and history, my talents are in the discipline of literature. But even then, you don't have any right to discourage me from expressing my views by quoting cheap references to mediocre pop culture , even if they show a degree of "retardation".
With all due respect and apologies, I'm afraid that you are acting exactly as I mentioned in the last line of my previous post. Please don't make this discussion a clash of egos. If you think I'm wrong, point it out politely, give me your logic and try to convince me. Right now, the idea of posting in more light-hearted topics seems too appealing to give a flying eff to your taunts. Have Fun!